I agree that it is important for pastors and anyone in the church to take action when there are advertisements for Ouija boards on their sites. Or, when clicking on a a "Next Blog>>" link takes you to something bad. We do need to look at a service we use and how what that service does to us will represent us.

But, many times this is not the fault of the site you are on. That pop ups come. Or, that you are directed to bad content. Recently, someone I know sent out a link on im. When people followed it something bad was installed on their computer. It caused what you saw to happen to them but the reason was something bad on their computer. I've seen this quite a number of times with certain versions of IE. I just want people to be aware of this, too.

I agree that pastors need to carry themselves with integrity, love, and kindness. But, that doesn't mean that they disassociate themselves with things that are remotely inappropriate. They shouldn't partake in the inappropriate things. Look at Jesus. He hung out with prostitutes, drunks, and people who were doing the inappropriate. He just didn't do those things. If we really are outreaching and loving we will be around people who are going those things. Yet, we do need to be sure that we don't do them.

I'm curious what blog service he was using. What blogging service was putting ads on his site. Can you fill me in?

I don't think a youth pastor having kids communicate with him through myspace is a bad idea. Maybe they need to wait until high school. Why would this be bad?

Kids already are on myspace, facebook, and other social networking sites. They are going to be out there anyway. Pedifiles are all over. They are on the internet. They are in our local neighborhoods. Kids are going to go on these sites. And, bad people might try to talk to them. Before the internet my folks taught me not to take candy from a stranger. Are we teaching those lessons with regard to the internet?

What's good about what the youth pastor is doing is he is engaging with the kids during the week. On days other than Sunday. And, he's doing it where kids are at.

I'd like to see more people teach kids and mentor kids as they put themselves out there in the world and on the Internet. They are going to do it whether we like it or not. I think the trick is to be there and help guide them to do it well. Does that make sense?

Matt Farina
Geeks and God Co-Host
www.innovatingtomorrow.net
www.mattfarina.com

Sean -

It seems like you may be coming down a little hard on your pastor. I agree with Matt that he ought to take action about the nav bar on Blogger, but that is much easier for someone like you or me. Plus, from the tone of his e-mails, he does not sound to be extremely tech-savvy.

His response doesn't sound like a lack of integrity to me. It just sounds like he doesn't understand the issue, and isn't sure how to fix it. A lack of integrity would be him stealing from the church, or making a profit from porn advertising on his blog. He is not associating with the offense conduct intentionally, and may not know how to go about solving it. I saw that you e-mailed him instructions to adjust the template on Blogger, but that would be overwhelming to someone who is not sure what all the code means.

Maybe, you could buy him a cup of coffee and talk him through the issues of what garbage is also on blogger. Then you could offer to help him change the template to remove the "next blog" button, so that it is no longer a problem.

I agree that it is important, that is one of the reasons why I moved from Blogger to hosting my own wordpress blog. (Sorry, Matt & Rob - I decided to get some exposure to wordpress in addition to drupal.)

While responsibility is important, so is compassion and understanding.

John
john-simons.com

My problem with MySpace:

My problem with MySpace? Pedaphiles! If you think it's OK for your 12 yr old daughter misrepresenting herself in such an environment, that's your privilege. I have much higher aspirations for my daughers. Being a father, I do not understand how a parent would encourage a child's involvement in that environment. I understand being a light in a dark place, that is what being a Christian is all about. I do not understand sending my child to a site that is known to be virtual hang out for stalkers, perverts, pedaphiles, and other manner and flavor of sexual criminality, that is beyond my comprehension.

Pastor's Porn Link:

I have been attending this new church since April, and several times I have filled out the contact card to volunteer to help with the web site. In September of this year, I did sit down with the pastor and talk about these issues. What is the blog service you ask? It's blogger.com/blogspot.com. For those who think I may be "too hard" on the guy, check out where me, my wife, an a friend of mine have been forwarded:

Links removed by G&G...
I don't posting them was really necessary. If you're concerned about a Christian website being linked to these sites randomly, why post them here on purpose?

I have done an excellent job keeping internet junk out of my house and away from my family. As as husband and father, it is my job to protect my house and family. I should not have to worry about porn coming into my house from a link on my pator's blog site.

Now that I think about it, I sound ridiculous. In fact, I am going to cancel my Open DNS account, stop my Squid server, and let my kids contact whoever they want in on-line chats and put whatever information about themselves on any "social networking" site they want. It is a lot of work to keep that stuff up to date, and just not worth it, because if it comes in from a pastor's site, it's ok, he's just a vicitm like the rest of us, right?

Man, do I feel better now all that responsibility is off my shoulders.

Hey Sean...
From one Brother to another with much love....I think you're approaching this issue in a way that's a bit rude to those who are trying to discuss it with you, please be considerate of the community here..but how timely! In last week's episode we talked all about how open discussion like this challenges us to respond in a Christian manner when issues like this get tough....so here's my thoughts:

I think, first, you're assuming that we're telling you not to protect your kids. Which is insane...no one is telling you that, so wipe that from your mind. I have a little girl, and completely agree that she shouldn't be exposed to this stuff. So, please understand that's not what we're saying.

Second, I think the other guys are actually correct when they suggest that no matter what you do, your children will use the internet (and these sites) anyway. Hopefully you won't turn a blind eye to this fact. If just sheltering them from bad things is your only action, I believe it will ultimately fail because, in the end, they WILL be able to access this stuff (if not at your home, then elsewhere). I think we need to teach our children about the issues that they're going to encounter, not block sites and never discuss exactly why that content is damaging to our souls. (shielding them when possible AND discussing it is a better way to go, so when you can't shield them, they can make good choices).

So, why not just block these sites at your home? Block MySpace. Block blogger. No problem. I believe it's responsible to do that if you're concerned for your children. However, what happens when they're no longer at your house? When they're at their friend's house? The question will be: Have you gotten thru to them by talking about, not just blocking that behavior.

So, finally, I would ask: How can you keep this up forever? The world is harsh. The world is dirty. And the further we pull away from it, the less we're able to share the gospel with those who most need it.

Jesus talked with the prostitutes and dined with the sinners, and The Church criticized him for it. Jesus didn't shy away from the dirty, he went into the middle of it. Ya know what that tells me? Just like your pastor: If Jesus had a blog now...he'd host it on blogger.com

-Rob Feature
Geeks and God Co-Host
www.mustardseedmedia.com

I knew those links would be removed from my post, which proves my point.

Blogger.com has provided ways to remove the buttons to other blogs. There is absolutely no reason that the buttons have to be on the pastors blog page. He knows how to remove them, but he hasn't because to him it is not a problem. My husband does a really good job of removing unwanted content on my computer. So when I went to our pastors blog, and clicked on next blog thinking that it was his next blog I was surprised to be greeted with porn. I immediately let the pastor know. Thinking he would want to do something about it. Unfortunately he does not. It is fairly easy, and he has the steps, but he chooses not to. You won't convince me that Jesus would leave that link. He never led his follwers into temptation.
As far as our daughter goes, She attends public school. She talkes to "sinners" and she eats with whoever joins her at the table. She has witnessed to her unbelieving friends, counseled them when they were hurting and has taken them to church with her.She has just as many unChristian friends as christian maybe even more. But why does being a light to the world mean that I need to allow her to frequent a website that 1. She is underage and would have to lie to sign uo for. (my space says 14) and 2. Has recently been in the news for its attracting of pedaphiles. She knows why we don't want her at MySpace and she agrees. She chats with her friends on safer site. (the school site and others) We are to influence the world, not let the world influence us.

Reflections on free-bloggin pastors....

First... I would like to thank both these parents for caring about others enough to engage with such tough concerns, and for sharing their distress and concerns with us.

IMHO:
It seems to me your concerns are valid. Your free-bloggin pastor could also have legitimate, loving reaosns for his actions. (Or perhaps not. We are all imperfect in tolerance and understanding.) It also find it puzzling he hasn't removed the "next blog" link. However to me, your description did not leave me with the thought that the pastor is bent on harm or somehow unconcerned about others or their children.

If this pastor reaches kids that love MySpace because he is present and available there, if he helps them find or grow in God, or to make meaning of their lives, is he bad for being there? If he uses Blogger.com because its simplicity makes it easier for him to reach people than using some other blogging options, is he wrong for doing that? Whether these are poor choices or a good ones, they are the kind of action, loving people striving to do well will disagree about from time to time. We've always had such disagreemnents. What's great about Christianity is it encourages us towards love and empathy towards those we disagree with. What's great about this "free" society is you are free either to stay and try to change a church or assoiciate with a different congregation.

Right now my congregation's ministers won't blog due to concerns about being associated or exposed to the more free-wheeling social aspects of the internet. They may be right about the effect seeing this would have on many members of our congregation. But nearly all our highschoolers (those that remain active) are very active and keen on using popular social networks. So from my perspective, this level of distancing seems a poor choice. A choice that increases the seperation of the church from its young people. Last year they asked for help, from me, church tech person, and a former youth leader. Unfortunately I've since had to report, that even pressing as hard as I can, there is no real chance this can be fixed while they are still in school. (I've informally suggested they consider building a strong linking social network of church friends on their own.) So I "might" well prefer your pastor's attitude. Would I be wrong?

Your pastor's choices may be encouraging your daughter toward experiences and risks you want to minimize. He seemed to you unwilling to honor your concerns with changes in his behavior. That might be unfortunate for you, but might be of benefit to others, and perhaps even to God. Being forced to reflect on this situation, the motives and choices may even help us all in some way.

Finally... I would again like to thank both these parents and this pastor for caring about others enough to engage with tough issues around young people and the internet... and for inviting our help and feedback. It's an honor.

Agape,

Mark

Sean-

Your instincts for dealing with this sounds about right to me.

And I love WordPress.
But though maintaing and setting up WordPress is simple compared with Drupal, even Wordpress can be kind of a pain to maintain. In particular compared to something like Blogger. What with a half dozen or so updates a year, etc.

I suppose one might try to lurring "Paster Free-Blogger" towards a switch with a free set up of a pimped out Wordpress. I wouldn't bank on success though.

Mark

You do bring up an interesting point about misrepresentation that I have to agree with you on. You had said it before but this is the first time you explained what you meant. Myspace has a policy that you need to be 14 to have an account and to go on at 12 is misrepresentation. I would not encourage minors to misrepresent themselves this way, like you said.

But, like a majority of people, I didn't know that was the minimum age. Does the pastor know this? And, there are a lot of minors already breaking this rule. They are on it despite the rule. If they are already there why is it so bad if he wants them to find him on there. In some ways it's a safe haven. A place where he can reach them. It may be that he isn't encouraging them to be on there but if they are on there to seek him out. Granted, I don't know him... but there seems to be more than meets the eye here.

I see that you are very concerned with your daughters well being, which is a good thing. I don't see enough of that these days. But, the idea of blocking something, like myspace, entirely because of pedophiles is a solution that just wont work. Putting up a barrier that is only there part of the time won't protect her. Especially, if she decides she wants to be there.

This reminds me that parents need to talk to their kids, guide them, and teach them. A lot of kids have sex before they graduate high school. The are many middle schoolers who have sex. In high schools and even some middle schools drinking and drugs is running rampant. There are a lot of boys out there with bad intent on their minds which are a much more likely scenario for concern, statistically, than pedophiles. And, this is happening at a place you aren't. In both of these cases guiding kids to make good decisions will go a very long way.

As for the Pastor and his blog. I still think there is more going on here. Sometimes it's how busy they are. Pastors are the busiest profession I've ever seen. If it weren't the most rewarding career I'd think they were crazy. Also, there is approach. If you approached him the way you have approached this conversation and the people here I can see why he wouldn't want to enlist your help. While you seem to have good intentions, you have come across somewhat rude and with a lack of showing love for others.

I'm reminded of 1 Corinthians 13 here. Not the part that is talked about in weddings but verses 1-3. It says...
"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing."

This is a hard lesson I learned several years ago. I think if you can learn this in your daily life it will go a long way towards helping your good intentions.

Matt Farina
Geeks and God Co-Host
www.innovatingtomorrow.net
www.mattfarina.com

Sean...
I'm not sure why you think removing the links proves your point. At this point, I can only assume you're trying to be antagonistic to the community here.

When blogger links to those sites, it's at random. They are not promoting particular blogs on purpose. Second, blogger doesn't claim to be a Christian website with any Christian values.

On the other hand, you've linked to those sites intentionally and directly. And, this site is one of Christian values, where we take responsibility for monitoring our content (just like you suggest we should). So, what you've done by posting those links is not even remotely related to your point....it was done out of an antagonistic spirit which I don't believe is healthy for the community.

I'd ask that if you post any further, you do it with love...not antagonism. Everyone else...thanks for your beautiful approach to this issue, it's well appreciated....and continue your discussions...

-Rob Feature
Geeks and God Co-Host
www.mustardseedmedia.com

As a person who uses technology and internet tools constantly I totally agree that the church needs to be using it. But as with any ministry venture we need to be informed. Just as a missioinary would be foolish to preach to a culture without observing the cultures and standards himself or finding an expert. Ministries are foolish for throwing themselves into technology without checking it out first. Your site proves that Christian "geeks" do exist and are ready and willing to help ministries get out there. There are ways to have a place, block unwanted content and still be relevant. If you are a youth pastor of jr high and high school kids you have a responsibility to know the age limits before you recommend that all you students join you on Myspace. If you are a pastor, and you want to have a blog you have a responsibility to find an appropriate place and to protect it. Free stuff is great! But if you can't control the content maybe God will send you a couple bucks to find a better place. The point is be wise. To blame the internet or "the world" as being a dirty place is missing the influence a Christian has. Greater is he that is in me then he that it is in the world. Use technology wisely and be responsible for your content.

I agree that the people in the church need to be responsible for how they present themselves. Part of that is their Internet presence and the free stuff they use on the Internet.

But, pastors, church leaders, and many of those gifted with writing up the content and presenting the message well are often not tech savvy. They rarely are geeks. And, most of them are so swamped with trying to spread the message that they don't have the time to learn.

This presents a great opportunity for geeks. It gives them the chance to get involved using their gifts. To team up with the pastors and leaders and do good with what God has gifted them with.

But, this raises a question right off the bat. How do Christian geeks get involved with the church leaders to do their part in this? I've seen the wrong approach to many times. Where the geek goes into the church leader and tells them everything that's wrong with what they are doing. That doesn't help. And, the approach is a negative one that many times turns people away right from the start. A better way is to visit them (maybe over coffee) and let them know that you (the geek) has some skills here, would like to get involved, and can help them improve on what's there with their skills. Then, propose things as what they are... improvements.

The different in approach goes from pointing out flaws to joining in the mission and using your gifts to help things improve.

I wish more ministry organizations did things well. But, the truth is most of them aren't geeks and don't know how. What's obvious and free has it's downfalls. What many church companies produce doesn't meet their needs. So, they see where they need to go, don't know how to get there and don't have the help they need, and what they know is some free service that isn't perfect. So, they do the best they can.

This is an opportunity for us geeks. Are we going to accept it?

Matt Farina
Geeks and God Co-Host
www.innovatingtomorrow.net
www.mattfarina.com

Just thought I'd pass this along: There was a Google Blog entry on Wednesday that discusses this very topic from their perspective.

I wasn't going to add my own comments here, but I can't resist.

1) I have mixed opinions on ministries using MySpace, but telling the underage kids to lie about their age to sign up is just not okay.

2) I was intrigued by the Blogger NavBar issue, so I resurrected an old Blogger blog (had to migrate it to Blogger 2.0 in the process) to look into it. I checked the template settings as cybersean described, and "Off" is not an option. I didn't spend a lot of time on this, but has anyone else looked at this? What did you discover, if anything?

Blocking The Navbar "Next Blog" Link

http://bloggerstatusforreal.blogspot.com/2007/08/b...

Either some templates do not have the "remove navbar" instructions, or it has been removed from the template editing features. Anyway, it took me about 3 minutes to set this up and test it:

http://bloggerstatusforreal.blogspot.com/2007/08/b...

See it in action here:

http://roofusdoofus-chicketychina.blogspot.com/

According to the documentation, this will not take your blog out of the "Next Blog>>" random rotation, it will just not display on your blog. If the user hits their browser's "back" button, they can get another random link from the previous blog's NavBar.

I will try this and not worry about how people format their blog on that service anymore:

Use a firewall or proxy server that filters by URL to restrict access to this specific URL:

"http://www.blogger.com/next-blog?navBar=true"

as not permitted.

This was in my local paper today, is why topics like these are so important. The girl was 13, which is below the age to have an account on MySpace:

http://www.examiner.com/a-1053855~Mom__Web_Hoax_Le...

This article is a reason I think it's good for ministries to be out there reaching people.

Statistically, people have less real friends than people used to. And, they younger people are the less close friends they have. This is compared with how people used to be.

Now, many people spend their time online and in social networks. They are looking for others. They are looking for real friendships. Yet, most of what's on there is superficial.

Since people are looking this is a great place to reach them. Since bad things happen here this is, also, a great place to have people doing good things and some safe havens.

This is really a sad thing. It highlights a big problem.

Matt Farina
Geeks and God Co-Host
www.innovatingtomorrow.net
www.mattfarina.com

Cool! Blogger's "next blog" link is now blocked in the filter we use at the church, and on the computer my kids use at home. Thanks for the tip!

Micah

If someone else lands on that page, from a link in an email or a web site, let's say, and the "Next Blog>>" link isn't removed from the page template code, it will still display at the top.

The filters at church and home just keep people from church or at home from seeing it.

She was under 14, MySpace's age requirement, her computer time was unsupervised by her parents, and according to the report, she was not interacting with any on-line ministry. There is nothing in the report that says a ministry on MySpace, or on any other on-line service intervened here.

Sorry, Anonymous, I was replying to a secondary issue raised by a previous post.

I don't have a Blogger blog. Well, I do, but it's not active, and FWIW, I applied the template hack to hide the nav bar, mostly to see if the hack worked.

However, the linked post also mentioned how to disable the "Next Blog>>" link for all blogger sites, from the viewer's perspective. Usually my maintenance of the filter at the church is focused on unblocking false positives for the staff or blocking new open proxies being used by the teenagers in the "Internet Cafe." I've found it never hurts to block opportunities to accidentally go off to a bad place. (If you're already running a filter, that is. That debate would spin this thread even farther off topic, I think.) Random links present such an opportunity to the users we're trying to protect.

So, no, disabling the Next Blog link doesn't help in the original poster's issue with his pastor's blog. Sorry if my response implied that it did, but that's not what I meant to say.

I didn't mean to say a ministry even tried to be here. I didn't read anything that said one did.

What I see is an opportunity for ministries. There is a whole out there that needs to be filled. This is an opportunity for ministries to step up and step out into that hole.

Matt Farina
Geeks and God Co-Host
www.innovatingtomorrow.net
www.mattfarina.com

As usual, I think Matt is right on.

One point I haven't seen in this (long) thread is the effect a responsible adult can have in a community kids/teens. I think that in a lot of cases kids see myspace as a community of their school friends. In most cases an adult (pastor or parent) presence could improve the culture. When I was in school, I definitely behaved differently when my pastor or parents were watching.

Kswan...I think what you say here is what many of us tried to say (but just implied it instead of saying it outright)...I think you'll see many comments swim around this idea without actually saying it...but I agree, this is the key idea for Ministries to grasp.

Thanks for making it plain :)

-Rob Feature
Geeks and God Co-Host
www.mustardseedmedia.com

I think when kids are around adults they learn differently, too. It's almost a mentoring kind of thing, especially if those kids look up to the adult. The adult can lead them down a path they never would have gone down if they were just spending time with their friends.

Matt Farina
Geeks and God Co-Host
www.innovatingtomorrow.net
www.mattfarina.com