I am currently in the planning phase of creating a new site for our church using Drupal (thanks to Rob and Matt!). One of the specific features requested by the leadership team is the ability to accept online giving. I've looked into a couple solutions (PayPal, etc.), but was wondering what everyone else is using. Any suggestions are appreciated.
Use drupal or go offsite
Hey Westside...
If you're already building a drupal site, use the e-commerce module. It comes with donation capability built in. Then, you just need to decide on a payment method. You can either go with paypal or get another qualifying merchant account.
If you don't want the hassle of configuring ecommerce (which can be a pain, especially the first time), you may want to look at some offsite options. Justgive.org is the first that comes to mind, but there's tons out there....
Good luck!
-Rob Feature
Geeks and God Co-Host
www.bobchristenson.com
E-Commerce and Paypal
I am using the E-commerce module and paypal to sell items from my personal store and am working with a couple churches to accept online donations. Seems like a pretty good solution and takes them back to your website once they pay. Paypal also allows you to set up a subscription if you want to that does automatic payments for a set period of time.
~Phil
Onsite
And, with a "Pro" paypal account, you can do all your payments right on your website. No need to even jump people off to paypal.com
-Rob Feature
Geeks and God Co-Host
www.bobchristenson.com
paypal
My church looked at this a while back and when I told them about the 2.8% (or so) fee they charged per transaction, they balked.
I'm curious to hear if anyone else has had to go up against this problem, and if you're just dealing with the fee.
The other option...
The only other option is a merchant account...and they charge fees that are similar (but usually not quite as steep). If you wanna take credit cards online, you're gonna pay the fee...bottom line.
-Rob Feature
Geeks and God Co-Host
www.bobchristenson.com
Credit Cards
Nothing is for free. If you want online processing you'll probably have to deal with processing fees. That's what it takes to interact with credit cards.
I wonder how churches react to this. The problem is many are hurting for money and want most things for little or nothing.
Matt Farina
Geeks and God Co-Host
www.mattfarina.com
Online giving is a bad idea
Hey Westside and others,
I have strong reservations about churches embracing online giving.
Here’s why:
• Throughout scripture debt is equated with slavery.
• At least in America, there are lots of folks burdened with out-of-control credit card balances (Some time ago the average was over $9K/person.)
• Although it is not the church's job to micromanage the accounts of parishioners, at least when cash or a check is dropped into the plate, the financial resources are already in hand. This is not necessarily the case in a credit card transaction. (This alone does not ensure fiscal responsibility, but it’s at least a base-level safeguard.)
• Online giving caters to the impulsive nature of the people who are most susceptible to this struggle.
• As an expensive transaction, it is poor stewardship.
• Giving to the church is already really easy. Every week an offering is taken, and anyone can instead drop off or mail a gift to the church office or CFO.
• Giving is an act of worship and the “set it and forget it” method seems, to me, to detract from being supple to the ongoing promptings of the Holy Spirit.
Most folks who use this will likely find it to be a simple and easy way to give; however we must always think of the weaker brother.
Any thoughts?
NP
PS: So my first post in a forum which encourages technology in Christian ministries knocks one of the hottest ones.
I LOVE this comment
NP...your first post and you knocked it outta the park.
I think this is an incredibly thoughtful and Bible based comment. I can't argue with you on any of these....
I may have to steal this and post on it over at my Mustardseed Blog.
Thanks for jarring the status quo...
-Rob Feature
Geeks and God Co-Host
www.bobchristenson.com
can't say i disagree
I can't say I disagree with you. I like the idea of thinking through the money given and not having the out of site out of mind attitude.
A lot of times we do things without ever thinking through them. Or, in the case of giving money people don't do them without ever thinking trough them. I wonder what would happen if more people talked through what they do and don't do and the meaning in all of that?
Matt Farina
Geeks and God Co-Host
www.mattfarina.com
Thanks Guys
Rob & Matt, thanks for the kudos. I'm really digging your podcast.
Rob, feel free to "steal" this post and blog away! (But send me an e-mail letting me know you did, I'd like to read your thoughts.)
You had to use the word, "steal", didn't you? It got me thinking...General Discussions > Open Source Ethics: Code Stealing. I'm supposed to be working...
Blessings!
NP
Mostly agree
NP
Great post. I think your right on target in most respects. I am 100% opposed to online giving with credit cards. I think that as stewards of God's finances, increasing credit card debt for giving is the opposite of what God requires. Its not giving the first fruits, its taking out a loan to give what you feel guilty about.
However, what I do, and am a fan of, is online automatic check writing and/or recurring direct deposits. For years I have been forgetful and didn't give properly. If I forgot my check book at church then chances are I'd forget later when I got home. I know this happens to many people. If we don't have a regular service and take an offering one week, giving falls off dramatically that week and isn't made up the next. By scheduling the transaction, it's the first withdrawal from my checking account every week. This has honestly tripled my giving, from what I occasionally remember to do to what God asks. As for it being an act of worship, I do think about it and pray about it when we take our normal offering during service. The only difference is that I don't put an envelope in the bucket. As far as the transaction fee, it is a minimal charge on my side and does not charge my church any. I am actually looking into incorporating our churches contact management and giving software into our church website so our members can sign up and give directly.
-sirkyle
Reoccurring Giving
Hey sirkyle,
Thanks for your reply. I see where you are coming from and personally don’t see any difference between a single electronic debit and a single check. However, I still wonder about the reoccurring feature. Giving money is an act of worship as is giving of our time and talents, prayer, praise and worship, and being a living sacrifice. Think about which of these you would like to “get out of the way” beforehand. How could you possibly prearrange them in a way which glorifies God? Part of the difficulty of discipleship is remembering to be one. Consistency is a big part of maturity.
I also believe being supple to the ongoing promptings of the Holy Spirit is incredibly important. Maybe giving a little more one week is what we need to do. And although giving to your local church is really important, maybe occasionally holding some back and redirecting it would be the wiser move. If we’ve already made up our minds, the Holy Spirit is seemingly not as likely to act through us.
The guy who got me thinking about all of this explained (and this certainly would not be everyone’s experience), how he set up a reoccurring debit and as the total number of dollars given rose, he became more detached (in his words) “seeing it only as another monthly expense.” You’ve said you pray about it every week, so that’s not your issue, but I see how easy it would be to fall into that trap.
sirkyle, as I reread my post it sounds like I’m coming after you; please know I’m not! I give far less than I would like to and that’s only because of lack of faith. Your giving is up and that’s likely a good thing. I guess I’d say examine your heart, and if you sense God's approval, then keep it up. But please be careful about introducing it to others who might not be as able to do so well with it.
Blessings!
-NP
Faith onto good works
I had similar problems with giving before and automatic withdrawal really helped giving.
If someone has the faith to give but is not giving because forgetfulness/convenience, then I think it is GREAT to give regularly automatically.
When I was in college, I signed up for Habitat for Humanity workdays. Let me tell you, it is really hard to get out of bed on Saturday morning when it is still cold and dark outside. Then I get into a game in my mind to think "If I force myself to go, then my motive is not right, maybe I shouldn't go." But in the end, I decided that whether or not my motive is pure enough, if I go, people will be helped, and that is good enough. And guess what? Every time I disciplined myself to do the right thing, instead of waiting for the right feelings to come along first, God gave me that sense of peace and joy usually few minutes after I started working.
So I think as long as you are not seeking to be justisfied by works, but works in obedience of what you believe, even though your faith is weak (not feeling it), God will bless that and give you the faith you need.
Ray
BetterServants.com
A community focused on becoming better servants of Christ in ministry and missions through technology and business.
Good points
You have very good points but i'm one of those people that do not carry cash. The only check that i write every week is for church. I honestly do not use my check book. I pay all of my bills online or with credit / debit. I do not keep a balance on my credit cards, but opt to use them to cash in on the rewards and supposed extra warranties on goods (i have yet to attempt to make a warranty claim).
The main reason i have not pushed the church i attend to offer online / credit/ debit giving is because of the merchant fees. We are a new church and the fees would hurt.
This is a tough call.
Merchant fees
It is worth shopping around for online payment services that understand the needs of churches and non-profits. You can get better deals.
The United Methodist Church uses Vanco Services which has services for churches and non-profits that are better than the standard merchant fees. There may well be others. Google currently has very good rates (but only for the rest of this year it appears).
Checkbooks and cash a thing of the past
While I have strong reservations regarding accepting credit card payments, I have found that many in our congregation ages 35 or younger do not use checks nor do they carry cash. They do all of their purchases, giving, etc. using a debit card or online banking service. So what do you do? How do you make it possible for these folks to easily participate in church functions that cost money (like retreats, Bible study materials, etc.)?
Tough Decision
This is one of those tough decisions. I'm one of those people who rarely uses checks or even carries cash. So, I can see the lure to accept credit and debit card transactions. For many people it's the only way they go.
But, on the flip side you have to give a cut of the money to the gateway that processes your transactions so you get less of it when you go this way. And, according to many statistics and reports people who are 35 and under are in bad financial shape. The spend more than they bring in. That's about $1.25 spent for every $1 they make. So, do you want to feed that? The bible talks about money responsibility and not being a slave to owing someone something with money.
This is a really tough question. I'd love to hear some feedback on this. I'm sure there are many people in the same position.
Matt Farina
Geeks and God Co-Host
www.innovatingtomorrow.net
www.mattfarina.com
Personal Discipline
Matt,
First of all, thanks guys for doing a cool podcast, it makes the commute much more bearable!
Onto this issue, I remember reading in a John Piper book where he cited that average Christians are giving less than 3% of their income, so combine that with the stat you gave, it looks like the bigger picture is that a lot of Christians are spending beyond their means, but not in giving to the church.
I don't believe it is good to give via credit card/debit card. However, I don't see anything wrong with setting up direct withdrawal from my bank to the Church.
Let's look at from another angle. I have been a missionary on the field, and it a great comfort to me to know that not only people have pledge to support me but they have a way to do so as painlessly as possible. In fact, I met a supporter when I returned to the states that said that he wanted to support me monthly but kept forgetting about it. These are the issues direct withdrawal could solve.
Ray
BetterServants.com
A community focused on becoming better servants of Christ in ministry and missions through technology and business.
Time Inc. article on bankcard/credit card giving
For once I strangely find myself having no strong conviction on what's best in regard to this discussion.
But this weekend I spotted this related article in Time Magazines online edition:
http://www.time.com/time/busin...
It contained some some statistics about card giving that were surprising to me. I don't have a clue where they got their numbers or how reliable or meaningful they are.
It definitely seems like a situation in flux though.
Mark
tithing...
I noticed the article talked about tithing. Tithing isn't giving but giving 10% of what you get. And, technically speaking this is before taxes. Since you make the money and then pay out a certain percent in taxes. Even if, in the US, we often don't see the tax money because the companies we work for take care of it for us.
What we usually have is giving and I think it's a striking enough difference to be noted. We don't want to get into a false sense of security.
Matt Farina
Geeks and God Co-Host
www.innovatingtomorrow.net
www.mattfarina.com
debit not credit
This is a tough situation. The US is considered the wealthiest nation in the world yet there is mass personal debt. I'm amazed at how much the people around me spend and the kind of debt they are in. I have a few friends who have gone through bankruptcy before the age of 30.
But, I don't know if I'm against debit cards. Credit can be a real problem depending on your congregation. You are often spending money you don't have. But, debit cards typically pull from bank accounts where you have money. This might be something to consider.
It's a tough balance between guiding the congregation to be financially responsible and making it easy to give donations.
Matt Farina
Geeks and God Co-Host
www.innovatingtomorrow.net
www.mattfarina.com
Definitely things of the past
I can't even begin to tell you how many times I haven't tithed or given an offering simply because I did not have cash or a checkbook on hand. I don't use them these days. I carry around my debit card and that is how I pay for just about everything. So when I set up online giving for our church through PayPal, I was the first customer. I am happy now that I am able to give to the church on a regular basis because I can now pay with my debit card. I still feel led to do this, and I haven't lost touch with the meaning in giving because of it.
I believe that it is the church's responsibility to teach good stewardship and good money management according to God's will. They just can't hold the hands of everyone of their members and make sure they are doing the right thing all the time. The same goes with Jesus' teachings. He teaches us through the Bible and through the guiding of the Holy Spirit, but ultimately our decisions are made by us. Hopefully what we are learning is sinking in and we are making the right decisions...
As for the fees, I think it is good to let the people know about the fees involved. Because of the percentage that is taken, I give a little more to make up the difference. Not everybody is going to do that, but at least they know what happens with their money.