Hi, I'm new here as well. I was interested in finding out what discussions were going on here, being interested in tech and a previous believer (due to being in a similar situation you're in).

I have to say, stepping outside the four walls of religion suddenly opens up a whole other dimension of thought processes that provide a basis for rational living.
To me basing life on fact and evidence provides far more excitement and enlightenment than any dark age myth ever could.

Thankyou for your reply,

When you were in my situation what made you go the other way and become athiest?

Do you not feel empty as some Christians would suggest you should. Who do you turn to when you need help. Have you ever fault that there have been signs from God calling you back?

Ive read that some people believe if you slip away from God and become tempted by the devil then you slip into bad things, drug abuse, theft, etc.

My faith is still a major part of me, and these big steps are terrifying for me. But everytime I think rationally about things I find it hard to believe, and the idea that religion was created by Humans to answer the ultimate questions in life is a very compelling argument.

Being an engineer by heart and trade, i follow where you are coming from. But what keeps me away from the typical "free thinking" that steers away from God is this: I ask myself, what is the source of this line of thinking or this opinion someone shared? What is it based on? Is it pride (usually) or selfishness or a "humans can think of the meaning of the entire universe and every small detail on their own" kind of thinking?

Then, I realize that these folks are just guessing and usually trying to sell me a book.

This source of thinking is from rationale and scientific evidence.

There are no set in stone beliefs with athiesm, as a race we are learning more and more every day and realising more rational answers to the "big" questions. You can't argue with the science, the only way I can see it is that God is behind all of the science.

Its certainly not pride or selfishness, do you have no faith in humanity? Do you think we are just mere mortals at Gods mercy, should we all just bow down to him and humanity should stop our journey of discovery.

Obviously you don't believe that because you are sitting at a computer discussing this with me over the internet, something we would not have if humanity did not have the instinctual desire to push the boundaries and to learn and discover.

Clearly we are at an impasse. but it makes me wonder why you would be on this site with your current world view.

newagethinker & rhino_US,

Welcome, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

it makes me wonder why you would be on this site with your current world view.

tb, You're a familiar face and I'm glad you're here, too. However, I'd like this forum to be a place where anyone, Christian or not, feels welcome. We've talked about it on the podcast, but I feel the need to reiterate this community not some form of a "Christian club." Anyone who finds interest in these discussions, I hope, will be willing to share their perspective.

In fact, I think a skeptic coming to a site like this with questions concerning religion shows a lot of wisdom. Far too often we gather with those who think just like we do and in many ways it is easier to learn from those with a different perspective. My hope is all might benefit from this conversation.

Ive read that some people believe if you slip away from God and become tempted by the devil then you slip into bad things, drug abuse, theft, etc.

I think it's far too easy to see Christians as "good" and non Christians as "bad." In my experience, some of the most kind, generous, loving people have been non believers and I've met a fair number of church-going scoundrels, as well. Growing up, I had a Sunday School teacher who flat out insisted when any good comes from anyone outside of the faith it must be the result of bad intentions (pride, etc.) Yet, when the faithful stumbled it was simply proof the were never true believers. I don't buy that! I can look at my own life and even though I'm a Christian I sometimes have desires to do horrible things. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn is quoted, "If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being." Christianity has not yet erased that line in my heart. I don't see Christianity about being good, I see it as the way to become alive.

Do you think we are just mere mortals at Gods mercy, should we all just bow down to him and humanity should stop our journey of discovery.

Far too often, it seems, religion and science are at odds. In fact, I can't think of any two disciplines who go after each other so passionately. However, it wasn't always this way.

Many of the early scientific breakthroughs were made by believers and many Ivy League schools had their roots in Christianity. The believe was that study of the natural world would reveal God's glory. More recently many hospitals (and medicine is a branch of science) used to have some sort of religious affiliation. (Baptist Memorial, Lutheran General, etc.) There seems to be less of this. It appears the fields my becoming increasingly polarized. However, I don't see science and religion as rivals and I don't think most of the church-going public is adverse to new discoveries.

Again, I welcome you two. And I encourage you to continue to post as you find desire to do so. Also, if you really are seeking the truth. I'd ask you pray, sincerely asking God to reveal himself to you. If he's real; he will. If he's not; he can't.

np, i get you loud and clear. and i have no issue with discussion. my closest friend is agnostic and we get along just fine. the key is, there are safe areas we respect. in other words, he holds my beliefs with respect such that he doesn't slam or say anything insulting. in turn, i don't preach or criticize his lifestyle.

now, he still knows i would rather him be sitting with me in church and all, and we do have our conversations at times...but things remain civil.

now when i am on a site that has God in its title and states "Helping and encouraging Christian ministries to use technology more effectively in order to spread the Gospel in new and innovative ways." ... I am assuming this is a Christian site. No, that doesn't mean all of our opinions are in 100% agreement. But it does point towards a core common framework of beliefs. (why does that sentence almost sound like i am talking about drupal?)

Anyway, it still baffles me that two psuedo/former/questionable believers would come to a site such as this and decide to discuss their unbelief. I can't imagine going to the geekswhodisavowknowledgeofgod.com site and asking everyone how church was last sunday.

so, i suppose that leaves me with now assuming that they are actually looking for help? so perhaps i need to view this differently and offer my prayers.

when i am on a site that has God in its title and states "Helping and encouraging Christian ministries to use technology more effectively in order to spread the Gospel in new and innovative ways." ... I am assuming this is a Christian site.

tb, I maintain websites are not Christians, people are. (And that goes for books and music and nations too). However, you're correct that this community was built with the intent of helping Christian ministries harness technology. I hope as long as we're around we remain a resource which is helping people do that. But we do have a place called "General Discussion." No one needs to agree to a statement of faith to post here. I value all thoughtful discussion, even if I don't agree with every post. However, agreement does not necessarily fall along party lines. Non-believers may have amazing insight into my faith.

Anyway, it still baffles me that two psuedo/former/questionable believers would come to a site such as this and decide to discuss their unbelief. I can't imagine going to the geekswhodisavowknowledgeofgod.com site and asking everyone how church was last sunday

There is a distinct difference between that and what is happening here. Visiting a skeptic's site and asking them if they attended church is a question which is designed to offend (or at least alienate). Asking them why they do not believe is a way to engage.

Some of the non-believers comments I have read on the internet are very compelling to believe.

newagethinker, what have you read that sparked your interest?

Often the discussions I've seen about God and science are based on the assumption that they are mutually exclusive -if one is right, the other can't be. The other point that seems to get lost in all the debates is that both require you to believe something that cannot be proved - to take something on faith.

I don't get the sense this discussion is about the either/or, but the both/and - how do we reconcile our human experience and scientific discoveries with the majesty of God?

There are many examples in history of great thinkers and scientists that turned away from God, later to be led back to God on the same quest for truth - C. S. Lewis and Einstein are just two.

For me, the scientists will continue to learn more and more about the processes at play in the universe, but the origin of the universe is inescapably God.

skenow....that was perfectly stated. i am going to remember how you penned your thoughts and quote you in the future. no kidding.

Looks like some of Rhinos comments here have sparked up some interesting debate. Personally I'm finding this fascinating as someone who is questioning my beliefs at the moment.

The reason I have come here to this forum is because of the mixture of tech and god. I was hoping for a little more "Science and Religion can work together" and I would find somewhere to sit in the middle. It seems though that most of you though are fundamental Christians and this is not something I can relate to.

I did not go to church this Sunday, instead I spent more time with family and friends. We also mulled over some of the traditions around Easter. Eggs bunnies and chicks are all symbols of new life, this time of year we are welcoming in spring where many animals are giving birth this time of year. This would have been a pagan festival here in England many years before Christianity was brought over by the Romans. It seems to me that perhaps the Romans planted there celebration of the resurrection of Christ neatly in with the pagan festival. Interesting one to think about anyway.

I would not see it wise to argue that "there is or isn't a God". No one has any proof for or against, the scientists can't prove there isn't, the theists can't prove that there is. Though most theists will argue that they don't need to because of "faith". There is no hard evidence though.

However, all the religions in the world have tried to say that there is, always in human form or forms. Not particularly imaginative, a bloke sitting above the clouds is all a bit cave painting for me, a bit 2000 year old. For early man, the clouds where as high as he could go, seems obvious that some magical deity lived above.Often people say they have the "sense of God" that people are often filled with. Derren Brown could conjure similar feelings, its trickery and magic at best.

What religions also try to do though, all of them, not just Christianity is to answer all the "BIG" questions. Life after death, origins of life, creation of the universe. The explanations in all religions are patchy at best, they offer no evidence and most bible stories are laughable to be honest. Modern science can offer much better explanations, hard evidence and well thought out theories. The Bible is thousands of years old though, its not bad for the time. Take the Noah's Ark story for one, its just a story. Anyone who can think rationally knows that, at best it is a good metaphor and has good morals but the story itself is just that, a story. Seriously two of every animal on Earth? How did they stop all the animals from eating each other, did the animals not all mate, how bloody big was this Arc? Its a children's story. Does anyone here believe this story as fact down to the word?

That doesn't mean there is no God though. Just that for me, religions are just the result of human beings trying to find answers. That is evolution, human brains evolved to the point that they had the mental capacity to start understanding more about the world around them. People had questions and people found answers. Growing up I remember having the same sudden thoughts. Its terrifying not knowing and you instantly look for answers, religions are already there. The Aztecs and the Egyptians had some crazy religious ideas. They obviously believed it as the absolute truth, they sacrificed there own children and built incredible pyramids. Not the kind of thing you do lightly. I'm sure you guys will agree that there beliefs, there religions, where wrong. If not why aren't you practising there religion?

What is to say that your religion is right? Be that Christianity, Islam or Buddhism. It is equally outdated, and there are so many religions world wide its so obvious how these religions have started.

That does not mean there is no God, just that religion is not the answer. Science is the answer, and science will increasingly unravel the myths of the universe.

I often think though that people have religion has a comfort blanket, they have turned to religion when they have had a rough patch in life. If someone to tries to take that away from them they will lose a massive part of there life that they require to struggle on. The biggest part of stepping away from religion is to lose that comfort. Sorry if that's the truth guys, but the truth hurts.

Another reason why people turn to religion is fear, they are feared of the unknown and they are terrified of death. Especially terrified of "Hell" the invention of Hell is one of the biggest crimes against humanity in all history. Making people fear of an place where you will burn in eternal hell is disgraceful and a horrible example of early population control. It is not right that people should live in a life long fear like this.

Bill Mahers "Religulous" really demonstrates this nicely, defiantly worth a watch.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0815241/

I think I have officially converted myself away from religion after writing this post!

Skenow...

I agree with you mostly, but...

Why should this direct you to follow a religion though, and why Christianity specifically.

Just because you believe there has got to be more to it all than just what science can tell us does not mean you should start living your life by a stone age myth...

If you do not want to take the Bible seriously enough to study it. And find sci-fi more credible... sure go for it—it's your choice, but do not ignore the evidence.

You also do not seem to educated on the matter as 2000 years ago, it was not the stone-age. Goodluck buddy, I truly hope your "eye's will be opened."

Josh.

The reason I have come here to this forum is because of the mixture of tech and god.

I guess he will just go to a tech site now?

I will not ignore the evidence if you provide me with some.

Would you like some more evidence supporting evolution, I can send you some more videos but I'm afraid you are to close minded to watch them.

I was using "Stoneage, 2000 year old" as a time frame. Interesting though, I understand you are a young earth creationist and thus believing the world was created around 5000-10000 years ago. Where does the stone age fit into this time frame if there is proof, provided by various archaeological dating methods, to show that the Stone Age lasted 2.5 million years. Don't reference "creation.com" here, it is just a sinical website full of half baked ideas and selective evidence.

Scifi and the Bible are similar on one count, there both just stories.

newage...i think you have had your fun and threw your stones around. i think it is time for you to go now.

again, i wouldn't go to a gay pride or jehovah's witness website and start slamming their beliefs.

tb

So your homophobic?

How can you hate the love between two people?

I thought not criticizing was tolerant.

He's not criticising them, but to bring it up as an example would suggest that he is homophobic.

I take it back if you are not.

newagethinker,

I don't know tb. I know he's smart. I know he has strong opinions. I know he's welcome here. I don't know what his issues are, but I know he has some. I can state that with confidence only because I know he's human. I have issues. Everyone does. Somehow, because he does not identify as gay activist that makes him a homophobe. I wish Christians loved everyone just like Jesus told us to. We're not all homophobes, but in each of us you can find fault. We are all unChrstlike in some form or another. The Bible commands us to be prefect. None of us are. Therefore we are all in a continual state of sin. Some of our sins are very obvious and ugly. Others have learned to tone it down and come across as legitimately nice people. But if you are given the opportunity to look closely enough you will be able to find fault with every single Christian who has ever lived. To make matters worse, by claiming to be like Christ, we are all hypocrites. But most of us are in a process of sanctification meaning we're getting closer to our goal, a little more like Jesus Christ.

Every post you have made has been one attacking members of this forum, either through general shots at The Bible or in religion in general or in the form of personal attacks. You claim to be interested in debate, but never answer any questions presented to you.

newagethinker, I probably should have done this sooner, but I value open discussion and am not only allowing, but encouraging you to remain active here. I will be closing this thread. I will continue to close threads as I feel they are unproductive. Anyone who repeatedly is the cause for threads being closed will be banned from the site. This forum exists for a reason and it's not to pick apart just what tb, may be doing right or wrong. If you'd like to talk about tech or have an honest debate about religious issues, I hope you will remain active.

EDIT: In an act of good faith, the threads are again open. I ask everyone to please remember to be kind.

Thanks NonProfit

I hope you are not a homophobe tb

newage...i think you have had your fun and threw your stones around. i think it is time for you to go now.

again, i wouldn't go to a gay pride or jehovah's witness website and start slamming their beliefs.

tb

Being gay is not comparable to religion, I'm slightly shocked that you might suggest this.

Also, what is it that Jehovah's believe that you do not agree with? I dare say it's on a parr with what non-believers think about theists in general, for example I'm sure you don't find stories of Thor and Zeus any more convincing than I do about your god, so from that respect I'm sure you can understand where we're coming from.

Why should this direct you to follow a religion though, and why Christianity specifically.

That is an excellent question, one that every Christian should be able to answer, but we aren't always ready to answer when asked.

For me, there was no 'conversion experience', but a deepening acceptance of the power evident all around, both seen and unseen. Science, in what it calls pursuit of the truth, can only observe and describe. It never really explains or ascribes purpose to life.

All human desires have a means of being fulfilled - we satiate our hunger by eating, our thirst with drinking, our sexual desires through... Well, you get the point. Also in every human is a desire for meaning. Science, instead of answering that desire, removes all meaning from life.

What you label a stone age myth is a current day reality for me and all Christians.

Peace be with you.

For me, there was no 'conversion experience', but a deepening acceptance of the power evident all around, both seen and unseen. Science, in what it calls pursuit of the truth, can only observe and describe. It never really explains or ascribes purpose to life.

All human desires have a means of being fulfilled - we satiate our hunger by eating, our thirst with drinking, our sexual desires through... Well, you get the point. Also in every human is a desire for meaning. Science, instead of answering that desire, removes all meaning from life.

What you label a stone age myth is a current day reality for me and all Christians

Would you mind elaborating on what evidence you've seen that suggests there is some supernatural power?

You're right in saying that humans have a desire for meaning, this is an unfortunate evolutionary trait that's burdened us throughout our existence. There are cognitive processes in our brains that for some of us are more apparent than others, but these can sensibly be counteracted by reason and truth.

In truth there is no meaning or purpose for our existence in this universe, and I find it a pretty self centred approach in life to think so. Science cannot remove meaning from something that isn't meaningful in the first place.

On the flip side however, meaning and purpose can be created within our lives individually, through various means like building a family, devoting time to hobbies, spending time with friends etc etc.

I think the religious of the world all have an obligation to answer questions about their faith; if bold claims are made and used in society, equally bold evidence needs to exist in order for religions to have any standing within humanity to ensure it's positive growth.

What is asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof.

Defect or not, we all crave something beyond ourselves, and that is not ego-centric. Quite the opposite.

In truth there is no meaning or purpose for our existence in this universe, and I find it a pretty self centred approach in life to think so. Science cannot remove meaning from something that isn't meaningful in the first place.

We live in a universe described by physicists as highly entropic - more likely to be disordered than ordered (2nd law of thermodynamics). Yet, there is something orderly about what we see and observe. We live in a marvelous time and space - the raw matter can be combined in many ways, yet lacks life without spirit.

My evidence? I've watched my children being born and I've just spent time with my wife's grandmother as she neared death. They all speak to me of a power beyond understanding.

""there is or isn't a God". No one has any proof for or against, the scientists can't prove there isn't, the theists can't prove that there is. Though most theists will argue that they don't need to because of "faith". There is no hard evidence though.
"

I think this belief keeps u from experiencing the proof available ... to those like me who can feel God that is proof enough ... at least proof enough to continue heading in that direction & keep praying & seeking to know & feel God more ... but the interesting thing is everyone needs to have their own proof ... religion is like trusting someone else's experience !! ( I Love God but loathe religion) ... that is the catch .. you have to want it in the first place b4 u can experience it ... i understand not trusting another's experience ... so have your own .... i recommend it ...

Thank you Non Profit & Skenow ... I appreciate both of your level headedness & intelligence ... regarding matters of God ... I don't find much of that ...

newage,

u r right to a degree. religion is kooky & silly. But that doesn;t mean there isn;t a God. good for you. As some people take religion's silliness to mean there isn't a God. But can you investigate God outside of religion ?? Can you ask/pray to God for answers to these questions ? I know prayers being unanswered make people not want to pray but how about we apply this logic ? That when you really truly want an answer one is there ... so if you have not rec'vd one you don't really want to know ? I feel this is the truth ... & if we are scientific about it we can see that we have lots of resistance to believing truths are available or that we are unworthy of them ... we are also scared that if we know the truth we will be held accountable ...

like your comments about Hell ... I believe in Hell but not the hell of the bible as a permanent place ... but a dark place that reflects our error until we face the truth about ourselves ... the Hells is where over 90% of us will pass as we are not in a state of Love ... how else could it be ? Where did Hitler pass to ? do u see if we all went to Heaven then it would become Hell like if we didn't have our error removed ? logical right ? I denied Hell too until i was honest & realized I just didn't wanna take responsibility for my unloving choices ... now that i am honest it makes perfect sense ... but permanence does not ... religion lies about that ... religion paints God as someone who is less loving than most people on earth ... a holy lie that is !!

I disagree with science being the answer ... bcuz these people discount God & a decision is made at the beginning of every experiment ... what are we gonna try to prove ? They start out with their limited ideas about what is possible ... so certain important experiments never even take place ... due to their lack of proximity to God they are asking the wrong questions ... i believe all can be known ... there are no mysteries ...

good luck to you ...

No meaning? What a sad existence.

I agree. This reveals your sadness ... at not understanding the purpose of things ... I feel it is to grow in Love & grow closer to God if we desire ... there is much joy to be had ... but we must be honest about the error ... i feel religion discourages this honesty ... we are supposed to have faith ...

Faith is hard to come by isn't it? You get pushed around on many different ways from many direction. Faith is difficult thing to preach when you see sufferers around you.God is only in-tune with your spirit because he is intact with you to begin with. Being in-tune with your surroundings can be a difficult task due to many vibrations. Know that you are zoned from your birth and realize that everything that is happening now is the dictatorship of god working within you. Be kind to each other so that god may be kind to you.
To begin the word, the Beggining was the word.

Why is having no meaning to life a sad existence. Life is just a momentary glimpse at the astonishment of the universe, you are lucky to die because that means that you are the one lucky enough to be born! The chances of that ONE SPERM and that ONE EGG and trace that back through every generation in your family. If that is a sad existence then I don't what is, certainly not some spiritual nonsense that you've created in your mind.

Now stop making up fantasies about the afterlife that help you deal with your unease with death and enjoy your life while you still can. Stop wasting your time with the nonsense that is religion and get on with it, NOW!

On another note, if you follow the Bible as THE WORD OF GOD, what makes you think the idea of hell is open to your interpretation! The bible is pretty clear cut on it. Few men are convinced the Bible means what they believe, they think that the Bible means what they believe.

Reading back through this thread, I find widely differing points of view, sometimes from the same person. If you were to separate yourself from your posts and involvement in this discussion, what would your view be?

Was it a discussion, a debate, an argument, an attack, a rant or a story?
How does it flow from beginning to end?
From a literary standpoint, is there a protagonist and an antagonist? Who were they?
Who do you identify with most in this story?
What questions does it answer? What other questions does it raise?
Has it reached its conclusion? Will there be another episode?

~Peace